[00:00:11] Pascal: Hi, welcome to One Degree Shifts. I'm Pascal Chamblay. I'm the co founder of Nectar. And today I'm joined by Rebecca Nicholson, uh, who's, uh, a very interesting person in the space that I've briefly met, what, three years ago, we were talking about already. It feels like forever ago. Uh, but I first met her as the co founder of 5D Capital.
And, uh, I was immediately pulled into Sort of 5D is a vision for the space, which was all about regeneration, purpose driven capital, really meeting the space in a way that is much more holistic and much more, uh, uh, less extractive and more about regenerating systems. And I thought that was a really interesting approach to this because in the space.
itself when I was looking for potential partnerships with folks. A lot of it was traditional capital. And I felt like 5D was really pushing the envelope and, uh, really sharing a voice that represents the work of Platt Medicins really well. So hi, Rebecca. Thanks for being here.
[00:01:13] Rebecca Nicholson: Thanks
[00:01:13] Pascal: Yeah.
And what are you up to these days?
[00:01:16] Rebecca Nicholson: Thank you. So nice to be here with you. What am I up to these days? Well, that's like, it's a big question. So many things. I don't even know where to start, to be honest. And thank you for such a lovely intro as well around 5D. And, um, it was really such an honor to be able to hold that space when psychedelics became very exciting around the world. And we got to really work with true heart led warriors that we really felt were working with integrity. And, we got to have those conversations with the people that we felt weren't working with the right energy. And it was just such an honor to be able to represent not only, And protect in a way the plant medicine, indigenous wisdom and all of, those different spaces, but also to be a female voice in the space of finance and business as well.
And, uh, making investments into, we felt really the right hands and the right light warriors. So it's been a true honor. Um, yeah, so I don't know if you want me to go into like what I've been up to since 5d or where would you like me to start?
[00:02:20] Pascal: Yeah, that sounds good. what's alive for you these days?
[00:02:22] Rebecca Nicholson: Yeah.
So, so pretty much I was with, so I started five D with my now ex business partner and we, um, closed the fund about four and a half years ago. was called the progression of consciousness fund. And, um, it was such an incredible time of my life and I was really thrown into, the lion's den of the space of impact investing.
And, um, I really just was given such an opportunity to learn and be immersed So since then I've been, um, really loving all of these continued opportunities that keep coming my way. I'm consulting with a few different psychedelic companies, but I have to say since the start of 5d to now, the whole industry has been like this and then a little bit like this. And then a little bit like this and then a little bit like this.
So it's like, once we kind of feel these opportunities where we're taking, steps forward, all of a sudden we're taking steps back. So it's really this kind of play of what does this look like? We don't really know what this industry is going to look like in the future. Uh,
That are going to be in this for life.
I will be in this space for life in different
and
it is an advocate, um, working with different companies that need the support. And, from my experience, what I can offer up in that in so many different ways, but also really just focusing on health, wellness, and psychedelic healing as a whole.
So working with a handful of different startups right now, which I'm super excited about, um, building out kind of more opportunities around what I've already done. So, yeah, it's been a pretty exciting.
[00:03:59] Pascal: It's a and it's a Justy top.
[00:04:01] Rebecca Nicholson: And I'm like, running around and, uh, doing everything as much as I can.
[00:04:07] Pascal: Yeah. And dealing with people pulling your garden with their car as you experienced this morning. So that's part of life, that's part of integration is like dealing with this stuff.
[00:04:16] Rebecca Nicholson: like, they're renovating this house next door and this, the big cube van is pulling out, takes off my entire, like, wooden garden, so, yeah, anyways, it's just like me out there dealing with all these guys. What are you doing? So,
[00:04:29] Pascal: That's when you know, like, where you're at with your integration process is how do I navigate this in a graceful way?
[00:04:35] Rebecca Nicholson: graceful way, and it's at the end, it was like, thank you so much. They fixed it. They made it look actually better than it looked before. And I was like, well, you know what? I'm going to need new windows at some point too. And they're like, well, call James. So we're all friends now and everything's good.
[00:04:49] Pascal: Yeah it's funny how it all works out sometimes.
And yeah, what you talked about, with 5D and sort of the work you've been doing, um, I'm very passionate about this subject because it's a pretty juicy topic like how do you do business and in the psychedelic space and when I say psychedelic space, the plant medicine retreats in the underground and every individual facilitators, I include all of that in there.
It's a pretty large community. Um, and when we talk about business to me, it's also means like, how do we organize? ourselves well as a community and how do we push forward in a good way and where are we going and why are we doing this? Um, how do we serve this space well is a pretty big question that I hear a lot from myself and Elaine too at Nektar and other people we talk to.
How do we do business in this space in an ethical way and how do we reframe it? To me this is a really juicy question which overarches all of this is how do we reframe extractive systems into um, Regenerative ones that regenerate life, because if we're not doing that as a space, then what are we up to?
Really, we're just going to be repeating the same mistakes that we've made in the past. And I think, uh, what I'd like to start with today is. Exploring this question, how do we serve well, is how do we, um, view this work, and if you're a facilitator, if you have a clinic, if you have a retreat, if you're investing in the space, if you're part of any organization in the space, is the approaching this work as a healing vehicle for our own personal work.
And it's a pretty crunchy subject for us, like mixing business, money, and service. And, um, it starts within our own. Stuff, our own internal stuff. How do you view that sort of question of service as an internal healing vehicle within the psychedelic space? How do you view that personally for yourself?
[00:06:37] Rebecca Nicholson: Yeah, I think, I mean, it is such a big, vast question and conversation, but really we have to start with ourselves, right? Like heal yourself first and heal the world. Um, but then you also witness a lot of people that do this type of work and this medicine. And when you're in it, it's so easy to say, Oh, I just want to help people. I just want everyone to feel this, because it's really, it's this incredible opportunity where you feel such an opening and such an opportunity for growth. And you really feel like. can do it for everyone else and hold space for everyone else, too, and I remember having the exact same feeling is that how do I do that?
How do I help people in the best way possible? And how do I make it more accessible? And how, how do we take our talents and how do we merge them all together? We all each hold different superpowers. So how do we bring those all together? And one thing I really witnessed as well, and especially in the impact investment plan.
side of things and really advocating for retreats and natural plant biomass and group ceremonial healing and all of in nature and all of these incredible ways of healing. But was always, well, how do you turn that into a return of investment? Right.
RO? And it almost just felt so cringy to even talk about, investors money and how they're going to, make money off of that.
How are they going to scale these companies? How are and of course, that's question when these companies are trying to raise money to stay alive and to continue to help people. So it is, it's, um. is a bit of an exhaustive conversation because where does it go and how do you do it? And I remember, uh, the last experience that I had, I remember, my own process and having this incredible moment where I was like, this is not about ROI.
Is not about people making money off of this work, really. I mean, of course, amazing facilitators need to be paid and balanced and like, and taking care of. And there needs to be a way where people are compensated for this work, but it's a different type of compensation. I don't believe it should be about. Numbers, um, and how people are going, people with money, how they're going to make more money. I don't really feel like it should be about that anymore. And I think that's something that was always such a big conversation in this space, specifically around.
investing specifically more around the retreats. How do people make more money? I don't know if that's the case. I really just feel like we need to continue to create more community. do we support each other better? How do we create more
opportunities that are actually safe with the right facilitators, with the right integrity, with the right initial people that, I always ask the question, people that were raising money, I always ask them when I was meeting them, why do you want to do this? Why? know where is this need coming from? And if the need is to, be a superstar in, plant medicine work, if the need is to make more money on the money you already have, if the need is to buy a crazy island for rich people to go to and heal their trauma, I don't know if that is the right way.
And to be honest, and I've said this before, oftentimes the medicine weeds them out. Without, people even having to do anything. It just weeds them out. that's part of the math.
[00:10:05] Pascal: Yeah, you're talking.
Yeah, and you're talking about a completely different metric of value and success, really, which I think to me is one of the biggest teams of the next century is redefining what wealth truly means. Um, and I think, beyond sort of the basic needs that we all have, and there's a very physical and, um, uh, Hi, if you're watching, if you're listening on Spotify, you can see this really cute, adorable, chunky cat.
That's a, that's an abundant cat.
[00:10:34] Rebecca Nicholson: This is, we just rescued him a little while ago, but he's a beautiful Bengal.
[00:10:41] Pascal: Wow. That's beautiful. Um, so he, he's definitely been, uh, uh, very, uh, uh, well served, uh, in this life.
[00:10:49] Rebecca Nicholson: I
it's safe to, we talk about, people, but I saved him, but he also may have saved me. It's
[00:10:56] Pascal: That's beautiful.
[00:10:57] Rebecca Nicholson: Credible woman. One of the OG psychedelic women in this space, she saw a picture of him and she immediately had a download. And she was just like, he is your spirit protector.
[00:11:07] Pascal: Oh, wow.
[00:11:08] Rebecca Nicholson: it as he's like trying to steal my pencil right now. Um, but she was like, he's in your life now for a reason and that's just the way it is. So I couldn't find his family. I had to, he was very sick when I got him, but we fixed him. We,
[00:11:21] Pascal: Oh,
[00:11:22] Rebecca Nicholson: and now he's causing havoc.
[00:11:26] Pascal: he's beautiful. Yeah, it's beautiful. Um, so yeah, this talks about, yeah, redefining wealth and what it truly means. And I think there is sort of this, uh, And I, I've seen it within myself with Nektara and, uh, having gone through this process of being a founder for three and a half years, like it just starts reflecting all of your stuff all the time.
And there's something new every week that comes up around, around your own personal work that gets reflected to some parts of the business. And, uh, I think early on, especially in the beginning, I was, I think chasing growth and I was chasing scale and I was like, Oh, we need to be bigger and we need to learn these numbers and.
Uh, over time, what's really surfaced for me is just the idea of, um, scaling in a very intentional, in a very focused different way, like scaling values, scaling ethics, scaling relationships, scaling, um, value that we provide for people's journey at a really affordable cost, like those type of things.
Um, and also competition. Yeah. What's that?
[00:12:28] Rebecca Nicholson: we all need to eat. So
[00:12:30] Pascal: Yeah, there's always this tension, right, of like, oh, there's this metric, which is money, and it's a very shallow metric, and then there's this metric of, like, you're in the ceremony, like you said, and we want to share this, and we want everyone to sort of have this experience if they choose to have it.
And yet I think it's challenging a lot of, uh, ancestral things, a lot of planetary things, a lot of social structures, a lot of, uh, ideas around what success really means. And as a founder, like that's been probably the biggest medicine I've received from doing this. And I, I see like every dollar we invest in Nektara is an investment in our own healing path.
Like this is our integration work now. And, um, To that, uh, topic, what's changed for us is just this idea of how do we collaborate together with other groups? How do we make hundreds of different small groups and connections that can help nourish all of it rather than having these giant monolithic organization that raise a lot of money, um, and end up having these financial pressures internally, which ends up changing all of their work because the metric is, uh, based on capital.
[00:13:39] Rebecca Nicholson: Yeah, it's really interesting. It's almost like we need a psychedelic ambassador in every city, right? Like the person that met you. Everybody around them or, can actually give, really good advice or education or opportunities to work with people that are vetted. Um, and to figure out all of those opportunities, because, nowadays I find, since kind of the space and industry it's definitely cooled off. Especially with maps and like, Oh, it's not moving forward at this point. Who knows what's going to happen in the States. Things might open up, um, considering the new government. interesting. Um, but like with Oregon, Colorado, Massachusetts didn't go forward, but there might be a couple next coming up, but people are definitely interested. And it's often, with you and I were in this space. So we know so much about it. We know so many people in this space. We've, been really marinating in it for a while now, but there's, most of the world really doesn't know anything about it, right? It's
there's
[00:14:36] Pascal: which was a surprise to some of us for like a few years ago, like, Oh, it's going to boom. It's going to be easy. It's not easy.
[00:14:43] Rebecca Nicholson: is amazing. Doesn't everybody know that? No, nobody knows that. Right. We're like, I don't know, 5%. knows what those statistics are, but really. People are very interested because there's articles that come out every single day about the healing opportunity and What it's doing for frontline workers or veterans or PTSD eating disorders depression
Like addictions There's all of these things.
So of course all of these articles are coming out. So people are again becoming interested and curious. And how do I do this work? How do I get this, these substances? Who do I work with? How do I make this happen? And the information isn't out there. So, so of course, people are going to make these choices because they're ready.
They want to do the work, but they're not finding the right people oftentimes. And then, Know, like bigger problems that we're going to be dealing with. But I have people reaching out to me all the time about where they can go, how can they do it where, like who, with what, or like how people want to get off their antidepressants and they want to microdose.
So there's all of these different ways where, people really do want to start stepping into their own healing, but it's just so inaccessible still for most people.
[00:15:52] Pascal: Yes, and it's also,
[00:15:54] Rebecca Nicholson: right?
[00:15:55] Pascal: and it's also a bit of a Wild West like you just touched on. It is a difficult, it's such a interwoven space and it really touches back on the personal healing part of like who is creating these organizations, who is. Leading these groups or these ceremonies, like, who are they and what are they valued the most?
Like, what are their ethics? Like, how do you measure that? How do you even know, like, how do you, uh, vet someone and to, uh, fully endorse and refer people to the right places. It's difficult to do that. And I think there I've been saying this for a couple of years now, the biggest need that this space has is around ethical frameworks and ethical vetting and ethical, um, guiding of folks to the right places.
People and start elevating the, the, the ethical and effective spaces to do healing work and to also help elevate those who may need a bit more support and have a communities of support to help those. And so not shunning people away, but just elevating those who are, uh, open to improving.
Uh, their ways of serving. Um, what's, I'm curious, like, what's one thing you've learned in the last four years, personally, as someone who's in the space?
Like, what's a big lesson you've learned? Um, I could share a whole list of lessons I've learned in the last, I'm curious about yours.
[00:17:06] Rebecca Nicholson: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there is a whole list of lessons as well. Um, I mean, I mean, there's so many different ways we could go around that conversation, but the ethical piece is everything, not only to protect the journeyer, but also to protect the facilitator. Right. So it's like, There's two ways to think about that. Um, but I do, I have seen so many beautiful things in the underground space, and I know there's beautiful underground servers, but I also have seen quite a dark kind of undercurrent in the underground as well, which is always concerning, um, which is again, why we need to be able to create more safe, Spaces for people to either, do deep healing opportunities or even just to explore their consciousness.
Right. And that should just be a basic human right to have that opportunity to do that legally. Um, so I mean, what else have I learned? I mean, it's just such a personal. journey, right? We all have such unique, different brains. We all have such different traumas that we're holding on to in our bodies.
Um, it's not just the story that we tell anymore. It's not just healing from neck up. It's not the monologue that we tell our therapists, for years and years and actually don't get anywhere with the story. It's our
[00:18:22] Pascal: Okay.
[00:18:31] Rebecca Nicholson: And as me, as a person, where is exactly where I need to go and what I need to do. So again, it's like, there's so many different routes to go around that, but I mean, it's an incredible space to be in.
The community is beautiful. Again, we're all just searching for those communities and those connections. And truly people do. up in a better place after the work. The hardest part is just showing up. It's like when I used to teach yoga, it was the hardest part was just showing up to the mat when you
[00:19:01] Pascal: Yeah.
[00:19:02] Rebecca Nicholson: the hardest part is just making that instant decision to step into the freezing cold water and then
Right. Just showing up for yourself. You're always going to feel better afterwards, but you have to move through the discomfort. You have to just move through it with grace, get on the other side. And you're going to see how that changes almost the, the nerve, the neurological chemical makeup within your body. yeah, many,
[00:19:28] Pascal: It's quite the adventure actually to be in this space here, right? Because we meet incredible people and uh, I find that's probably the biggest privilege I have to be, we're operating in this space is that we meet amazing people every day and. Uh, it really is a reflection piece for ourselves.
And I'm speaking of Elaine, my co founder and wife as well, around, uh, what we keep learning for ourselves to other people's reflections of how they, they show up and how they relate and how they communicate. So, As part of business founders to us, that's been the most enriching part is understanding how to be in this space and the way that meets people where they're at and also navigating the everyday challenges of business, which are very real and very present.
And, how do we balance that sort of business? Way of doing things with sacred work. That's a really interesting topic that, I think a lot of facilitators, for example, really struggle with, like, how do I charge for this work? Like, how do, how much do I charge? Like, how do I feel good charging this?
There's a whole lot of stuff about money in the space. As a business, there's a lot of things around competition, around, like, holding things by yourself, around not sharing, around, um, trying to get big and all the stuff we talked about. But it's the money piece is such a charged thing.
Like, how do you see that, like, the role of money and the energy it has in the space? It's a very strong one, isn't it?
[00:20:48] Rebecca Nicholson: It is so strong. I mean, money in general for people is trauma.
[00:20:54] Pascal: It's even, it seems even more amplified when you're doing sacred work. It's like, uh,
[00:21:03] Rebecca Nicholson: conversation. And I think that in any regard in relationships, money can be tricky in business relationships. Money can be tricky, as homeowners, as parents, as like real life struggles, money is a tricky situation. So how do you put a number on healing work? It's, um, it's like, how do you put a number on artists? Right? Like, all I know is we need more of them. We need more artists. We need more art. We need more theater. We need more real
[00:21:31] Pascal: Okay. That's the end of my talk. And again, for listening to my presentation. Thanks. Thanks, everyone. Thanks. Bye. Bye.
[00:21:55] Rebecca Nicholson: communities, when someone's suffering, they come together and they hold that person and they hold until that person is better.
And. What are we doing right now? I mean, in Toronto here in, in the biggest city
[00:22:07] Pascal: Um, It is.
[00:22:28] Rebecca Nicholson: real community in the middle of the woods. Like my dad built the house I grew up in. So for me, it's been a struggle being in Toronto. I've been here longer than PE. I know. Like I grew up, I came here when I was 18 to go to university, but I've been searching for that same feeling since I got here, that same. Community. So I don't know how I got on this tangent of community, but again, how do you monetize and how do you put a number on your art? And
Plant and server or a psychedelic space or older holder, or, all of these different kinds of healing modalities, how do you put a number on that?
Cause
Intuition, and that is energy. How do you put money on energy? How do you put money on intuition? You know how to do that, but I know that you have to do it. I know that the healers need it, there's no rhyme or reason why it should be this much or that much. I remember at one point I brought this Feng Shui master into my house. Do a whole walk around. And boy, it was very interesting and also like disconcerting in a lot of ways. But when he was like, it's so hard to put a number on the cost. And I was like, yeah, I know. Like, how do we figure this out? And it was really important. I took like pages of notes. Like it was quite incredible, but literally looked down and he found a receipt on the ground and he looked at the numbers and he was like, You can just pay me that. just a random piece of garbage. And, it kind of made sense. And I was like, okay, sure. Let's do that. But again, like, we can't just play around in that way. Like, people
And mysticism and then the 3d is, oh, okay, now I have this gas bill and now I have this, energy bill.
And now I have this mortgage and I have to feed my kids and pay for gas. And so it's really hard to match up those 2 worlds. I know a lot of servers out there. In the work for free, just as like almost a give back, which is incredible. And I think it's because they have the means to do so. Um, but yeah, it's a tough one, but I do believe that, people need to figure out how to step into their power more so, and to truly ask with confidence, what they deserve and, um, and to create that and to honor that balance, the work that they're doing for people that need. To do the work that's
[00:24:41] Pascal: it has to feel regenerative, right, in all the levels, and I, I just, there's people, the facilitators that I've, um, I actually helped also set up their spaces and, travel with them to set up spaces and they work so hard and then they don't charge enough. And then that ends up becoming a, Real life issue like they don't have enough abundance and so they struggle in some ways and they show up in that work and in a less than optimal way.
And I think you touched on that earlier around community. And I think it's I think it's important. We should talk about that. Given the. Multiple aspects of this work, which can, uh, go deep into our own healing work and even lineage stuff and, deeply held beliefs and things. I think the importance of community is understated sometimes in some ways, especially as people who do business or are facilitators, is having a community of support, like people to check in with, people to help guide you and to keep you accountable.
To the work you're doing. And I think that's really important because no one has all the answers. So I think we're building a spaceship in midair in space while, flying it basically. So we, none of us have the answers, like you said earlier. So we're kind of stumbling forward, failing forward, it's
[00:25:49] Rebecca Nicholson: Because I know that I remember you did an educational, um, component on psychedelics and narcissism. And I thought it was also so interesting because I had met this, um, facilitator, this incredible woman, uh, like an OG, she was in her mid sixties and she is, serving medicine. And I remember having a conversation with her at one point, and she admitted to me that she was working with a gentleman that was definitely, On the highest kind of spectrum of narcissistic personality disorder. And I was, reflecting on that and thinking, well, it's not really ethical for you to be serving medicine this regularly with somebody that, is. Dealing with this mood disorder. Um, it's one of the cluster B mood disorders that they say is, should not probably be doing psychedelics. And she really didn't know anything about it. And I sent her resources. I sent her a few articles. Um, and, uh, in. I don't know what's happening there anymore, but again, like these systems need to be continued to be built out to support um, so that she could go if she had that community, she could have gone to her community and said, I know this is happening.
And how do I deal with that? Um, so
it is, it was difficult, those difficult kind of choices and kind of understanding what to do.
[00:27:06] Pascal: What I'm curious to hear, like, what's your support system? I can share a bit more about mine. Like, obviously, my partner is a big one because she knows me very intimately. So she'll pick up on stuff pretty quickly. And, um, we have a, Uh, our guides and our community feedback from people and mentors.
I have a coach and that's a really good place to come and get support. And of course, we have, um, our partners, as well. And I think just for us, what's been the most helpful is always asking, like, how can we do better? Like, just having this very humble approach to this work, because ultimately we're going to mess up sometimes and we have messed up, so it's going to happen.
And like Sandra Dreisbach, who's an ethics consultant and one of our partners, she says, it's not a question of when you're going to mess up, it's how you're going to mess up and how you're going to get community support around your mess up. And a lot of healing and a lot of learnings have come through messing up and then.
Repairing with someone else and having that conversation in a very humble and open way of saying, how can I do better? I think that's a big part of it is just being humble to the fact that, uh, we're flawed in some ways and we can keep learning as well.
[00:28:20] Rebecca Nicholson: 100%. I mean, even just being a parent is you're like fully in that all the time. We're messing up all the time. I'm messing up all the time. I don't want to
[00:28:29] Pascal: I messed up like an hour ago with my son Noah, so.
[00:28:31] Rebecca Nicholson: I mess up all the time and like it doesn't feel good, right? So, so how do we repair and it truly is all about the repair and now I start seeing my, I have two boys, one is 12 and one is eight and I'm starting to see them repair, which is making me so proud because obviously they're learning. to repair from when they mess up, because truly we are humans and we're going to mess up.
And do need those communities to support us and help us. And, I have incredible friends in my life incredible acquaintances, people that I feel like I could call in a moment's notice.
And they would be there for me and people very deeply ingrained in this space, but also in like the business space or the finance space, or, in all of these different worlds. Um, and it's really kind of, you're right, being humble and taking those opportunities where you can for help, because I think that's one of the hardest pieces to like, I'm really good at repair and saying, oh, man, I really messed up.
I'm so sorry. I could have done this better.
But asking for help, I think, is really important. Being the hardest piece for me. I
something that came up in some of the, my own personal healing work was, deserving of that, right. How to be okay with asking for help and maybe trusting that person will say, yes, I'm here for you.
[00:29:53] Pascal: That's a big one for me too, because I've always been sort of a lone wolf, like, doing things my own, like, succeeding that way, and then, uh, I've had the most, uh, healing times, I don't know, healing times, is that a thing? I've had the most nurturing moments where, uh, I reached out and asked for help in a situation where I wouldn't ask for help, and they said yes, and I was like, okay, that's cool.
This is a cool little strategy that I've never tried before. And I got a lot out of that just to be able to be vulnerable enough to ask for help. And, um, and you touched on that a little bit too.
And, uh, I think the importance of having people around us that are not part of the space is actually pretty important because I feel like as a, And I don't like to use the word space, like, as a community, I feel like there's a sense of a bit of exceptionalism sometimes in the space of like, I am completely outraged that they said this, like, what kind of person are they?
And we sort of have this idea that people in this space are like, higher than others, better than others, and then we get disappointed sometimes because they're like, oh, that's, I thought you'd do better than that, but actually we're just humans. And we're going to mess up a lot and we have to have that own humbleness towards ourselves that we're also kind of messed up in some ways and that's okay, we can hold it together and move forward together and so I think there's a lot of, missed opportunities for repair and also elevating of others because we kind of shun people away because it didn't do things the way we expect the medicine to teach us, but it's a lifelong process to do that.
[00:31:19] Rebecca Nicholson: Oh, my gosh. I love that so much. And thank you for touching on that.
I've met a lot of people that maybe weren't fully on the inside of the psychedelic space, but that are also running psychedelic businesses, but maybe not, feeling fully included in kind of the psychedelic community. And there, of course, there's going to be those, it is very natural for humans to, judge and create these kinds of, um, Opportunities where maybe it doesn't feel fully,
[00:31:51] Pascal: Yeah.
[00:32:13] Rebecca Nicholson: and be like, Oh, Rebecca, that was an awkward one, but you know what, like it's,
I am here who I am now. And that's going to change in a year. Right.
It's, I'm going to learn more in a year. I'm going to keep learning. I'm going to keep putting myself into whatever trainings I can. Like I just did the Beckley Academy, um, the foundations of psychedelic assisted therapy last year. And again, it was incredible. And I knew a lot of the information, but my gosh, it's always so good to revisit. And it's always
have the opportunity to talk further and more deeply into all of these things.
But, there is nothing set in stone. There's not one way to do everything. There's a gazillion ways to do work,
[00:32:52] Pascal: Yeah, they're hard to learn the way. This is true. And I think that's part of the, yeah, the, I guess the segmentation of groups. I think is that people have a certain way and then they kind of shun the others and then they have a certain approach and they're like, well, I know better.
And, um, I think also, yeah, It's my way or the highway.
And, um, obviously when we're trying to reframe business and just, uh, being in community together, I think that a big part of what this medicine is trying to teach us is diversity and inclusion and, um, that we don't know a whole lot. We're just humans.
We're on a rock flying in space and we don't know a whole lot. And there's a whole lot more that we can learn and a lot of better ways that can, um, emerge from, um, this. Being in this space because we're at the edge oftentimes of new learnings and new teachings that are completely countercultural.
Sometimes I feel like an alien in the world sometimes because this is really at the frontier of mental and health and wellness. And some of the stuff we talk every day as a, as business owners is something that would feel extremely strange at 98 percent of people. And so that with that, I think comes a really.
It's a privilege and also a big responsibility to show up in this space in a way that as much as we can reflects the teachings of the medicine, which, disclaimer, I, no one is close to, to be able to do that fully, but we're trying, um, and so it's a beautiful journey.
[00:34:18] Rebecca Nicholson: Yeah. I felt that too. It's just like, I felt, almost the privilege of having the opportunity to be able to speak on the behalf of, a lot of people that don't have the opportunity to. So, to be, to speak for different socioeconomic groups or different, communities that really do need the help The support, but aren't getting it because for instance, retreats are so expensive. Um,
do we, everyone there so that it's not just built for, elitists and people that just have money just to spend, so that they can just continue to explore their life in this world. And it's all of these different components around that, but. Um, yeah, there's certainly not one way.
I mean, now, there's all these different stacking opportunities with different medicines and, and people are, it does,
Bit of the Wild West component and, especially being a mom too in this space has been interesting for me, in the
[00:35:13] Pascal: Let's talk about that a bit, like, what's been your experience with that? Like, if you want to share anything about it, like, it's
It,
[00:35:18] Rebecca Nicholson: I had. so when we were making investments in this space, one of our first investments was Beckley retreats and, um, and Beckley wave. So we became very close with, the Beckley foundation. And I, and, I was like, I really have to do, I was invited to one of the first Beckley retreats to experience what their offering was.
And I had never done. Any type of psychedelic retreat like this before, or any, large dose, macro dose, I experimented before, obviously, but I fully committed, which is hard as a single mom to finally just say, I'm going to do this work. I'm going to let go. This is it. I'm just going to trust. Um, because, my, my marriage ended when my kids
[00:35:58] Pascal: Um,
[00:36:02] Rebecca Nicholson: uh, of rock and Cosmo. And um, our second ceremony, we were right beside each other. She's on the maps and we became the mischievous ones together. And sometimes she'd turn to me and she'd hold my hand and she was like, isn't it so beautiful? And I was like, this is my hero. I couldn't even speak. I was just like a melty mushroom, just like, but I was like incredible to be by this, I've said this three times now in this conversation, this original gangster of the psychedelic space, she's been advocating for psychedelic research and psychedelic assisted therapy for over 30 years. She, was experimenting with consciousness for probably most of her life. And, um, I was thinking, wow, like, look at everything she's accomplished, mother, two boys, look at everything she's done. And she's still fighting so hard to create this opportunity for people create deeper healing. And, um, it gave me such a boost of confidence that I was on the right path. obviously, I'm, I had felt judgment from other mothers. I had felt like I'm not on the normal path. It's like all of, these other moms that are intact families and these, these perfect families. And was like, well, that's my journey right now. But at the same time, so grateful.
I'm I've always been one that's thought outside the box. I've always been one that's kind of carved my own path. And, um, Yeah it's definitely been an interesting journey, but you quickly realize who's supposed to be in your life and who's not, and that feels really good too. So,
[00:37:39] Pascal: all those parts you bring to your work and you bring to your relationships. So it creates a uniqueness and a richness that, uh, other people may not be able to provide. And that's completely complimentary. Everyone brings their own flavor and their own essence to the space. And I think that's part of what makes it beautiful is that all of them are welcome.
Um, and that all of them are part of this journey that we're walking together. And I think that's a beautiful thing. I find a lot of nurturing and nourishment and knowing that's the case that we're all walking this path together and that we're all learning together.
Um, And you touched on it a little bit, which I think is, uh, important to talk about as well is reciprocity and how to build models that, uh, the typical way would be that we take things and we use them and discard them.
And the new way that the medicines are teaching us is to, uh, build models. Regenerate, nourish back, give back, honor all relationships. How does that look like for you as, in terms of business, as a facilitator, as a retreat? Like maybe we can take a retreat as an example as one of the core pieces to me of a healthy and solid retreat is their reciprocity.
How are they relating to the local community, whether they're in Canada or Costa Rica or Peru, like those things matter. How are they in relationship to the land, those type of things?
[00:38:58] Rebecca Nicholson: God. So important. And the land is sacred, right? Especially if you're doing medicine work on that piece of land. That land is sacred. It is holding so much power. And you can feel it when you go to these places that, I went to Holos recently. And I, the first time I went to Holos, um, I stepped into the Moloka and I just walked to the center by myself. And I lay down in the middle of the room and I just wept because it
[00:39:23] Pascal: Oh
[00:39:24] Rebecca Nicholson: for so many people for, at that Um, so yeah. And again, like working with the different indigenous groups in those communities, making sure that, opportunities are there for, selling art or being a part of the operations or even just sharing their wisdom and, and continuing to bring that back and forth. Um, I was actually supposed to spend time with the Baruka tribe there, and I'm still hoping that I can at some point, but I connected with them and I had, I asked permission if I could go spend time with them. And I was, like my contact had to go and speak with them about that. And obviously I would bring a translator, but it was really, again, about just being there and listening, like, just say anything. It's just go and listen. Right. It's just
Like, sure, I would love to spend time with the children and like, have that those one on one times. And I've done that. I did that in with a group of philanthropic track in Nepal and the most incredible opportunity was being with the Children. And because we don't need to speak the same language
[00:40:28] Pascal: Yeah
[00:40:29] Rebecca Nicholson: and we're just there together as humans. Kids don't see you and judge you. Kids don't, wonder what you want or why or how much money they're going to get. They're just there. Who are you? Like, let's
[00:40:40] Pascal: Yeah
[00:40:40] Rebecca Nicholson: You know, like peek around corners to get like, that's kind of the magical element of this and we talk a lot to about, know, again, bringing in that childlike wonder and bringing in the sense of play into all of these opportunities. But again, like with retreats, scholarship programs. Raising money in the foundation so that we can bring, different socioeconomic groups in, um, potentially, I've heard of different models where, uh, CEOs or found like, kind of. More higher end that can spend more money would spend more money. And then that would go kind of in a bucket where kind of other people could come in and take those. Well, but it is hard because again, it's hard to run, it's hard to fill
[00:41:27] Pascal: Yeah,
[00:41:28] Rebecca Nicholson: to keep them going, week after week or whatever, model people are working with the retreat business.
It's a really tough business to be in. Yeah,
[00:41:41] Pascal: friend Ian Michael who created Holos and he's put his heart and soul into that place and he started with like, basically, uh, dirt, a lot of dirt and a big vision, and I've been following the project and I just want to thank You know, just really honor him and everyone else out there who's running a retreat, because as you said, it's extremely difficult.
I think we've all been through the experience of going through a ceremony, like, I'm going to start a retreat. We're going to have a LAN and a community, and I mean, Elaine did that too, like before Nectar, we're like, oh, we're going to open a retreat. So we looked at a LAN and we did the whole numbers and we're like, you know what?
This is actually really hard, uh, like from a business perspective.
[00:42:21] Rebecca Nicholson: like so many different companies have come to me because I was the retreat, business side of things like we invested in many retreats and I had so many people coming to me like how do we do this? How do we make this work? And oftentimes I said, This is really hard. Like you have to make sure you understand how hard this is going to be, and it's not probably going to get that much easier. It's
to be hard and
[00:42:44] Pascal: Yeah,
[00:42:45] Rebecca Nicholson: You're going to feel really good about the work you do. You're really going to help people, but it's really hard to keep it going. And eventually it might be too much. It just, it's, um, I hate to say that, but unless you have like, a big team that are, unless you have a good marketing plan where you can really keep selling and filling those retreats, um, it's really tough, even, with holos, they're renting out the space a lot now for other facilitators to come in with their communities, which is great.
Right. That's an incredible model to work with
[00:43:17] Pascal: yeah, because I think, a retreat by itself is like a hotel mixed with a healing center mixed with other like an operations juggernaut, basically, and a marketing machine you need and client care, um, and I'm just going to plug Nektar real quick is that's why we create Nektar is to help support the retreats that are doing this.
They don't have to hold everything on their own. And I think that's part of the, yeah. Old model that we've often fallen into as business folks is that we want to create everything by ourselves. And we feel the need to scale the team and scale the funding. And there's so many trappings that come with that.
And I don't believe that highly funded retreats is the way to go. I think it's the more about hundreds of small retreats. And there's a person, uh, Uh, Miles, who, uh, was one of the fundraisers for, uh, Synthesis, which obviously, for those who don't know, raised a bunch of money, blew up, and just, it was a whole thing, uh, he now runs a retreat called Confluence in Oregon, and after going through the Synthesis thing of, like, big, Fast and too much.
Um, he now runs a very small scale retreat with like one group every month and he's loving it and it's so intentional and it's in the forest and there's no pressure from capital and investors and having too much of a team. Uh, and I find that beautiful. There's a lot of people like that, like Alalajo, Jennifer Tesler, uh, in Spain and Netherlands that are doing that sort of work that their nervous system feels great doing this.
[00:44:43] Rebecca Nicholson: Anna.
[00:44:45] Pascal: Sorry?
[00:44:47] Rebecca Nicholson: is
[00:44:47] Pascal: And I'll Jennifer. Jennifer at Alalaho. Um, they have like six or eight retreats a year and, uh, their team is nourished and their nervous system feels good. Uh, they do it small and it, people love the experience because of that. There's no like sort of rush every month to fill out the retreats, which is a trap.
I think it can help people. I'm not saying it can't be helpful, but it's also very difficult to hold that kind of ship. And, um, Everyone I've talked to in the retreat business has been struggling in some way with that sort of stuff. So, it's, we're trying to serve and also like, scaling the service to what feels good for our soul, I think is important as well.
[00:45:26] Rebecca Nicholson: Yeah. And I think that's one thing to, keep in mind for healers as well when you're holding space for somebody, but then all of a sudden you have to turn around the next day and, after healing everyone's, darkness, you turn around the next day and you're like, Oh no, I have to fill the next retreat.
And what's next. And like, Oh my gosh. And this problem, it's
This way too much. And it's tough if you don't have the right support.
[00:45:46] Pascal: Yeah, so small scale, um, supported, um, A network that supports each other, I think to me is like the way forward that feels really nurturing and also sustainable. I think there's definitely a sense of like burning out sometimes where we're trying to grow these things and we end up burning ourselves out and that's not really sustainable.
Um, I'd like to touch a little bit on, um, pricing. Um, which is something that we touched on briefly. Um, I used to be very, uh, and accessibility is a very important thing for me and, uh, and Ektara as well. And also, yeah, I've seen people charge like 15, 000 for retreats or like, this like big sort of like pricing structures.
I, I used to be of the mind that there's no space for that. There's no place for that sort of thing. And I still. Mostly believe that, but also I check myself in that and saying that there's different access points for different folks that maybe prefer a certain way of, what's your take on sort of the pricing range of, someone struggling to make ends meet at 200 and then some people charging 50, 000 for an experience?
Like, do you think that's part of the muckiness of the space or like, what's your take on sort of pricing and access?
[00:47:01] Rebecca Nicholson: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, the people that I've met all different, kind of spaces of, people that want to do this work. And there's, there's the high end of like hedge fund investor, or. That, or, uh, a hedge fund founder that has incredible means to spend on things that make them feel really good. And then, there's people that just don't have billions of dollars to do the same thing. So, I mean, it's an interesting conversation. I mean, I think that it just comes down to, we all need the work. We all, if you're interested in doing the work, to do that. So somebody that wants to do the work that has all this means, maybe they don't want to go sleep on a dirt floor in Peru, but maybe they want to spend, 20, 000 on a five star private Island experience.
Need out of that experience, it might just be too, flashy. It might be too sparkly. It might just be not the work that they probably need. About, like, it's really important to have the discomfort. It's really important
back. Before all of the richness came, it's really important to be barefoot on the ground and to get dirty and to
[00:48:17] Pascal: please
[00:48:17] Rebecca Nicholson: about it. Right. Not having your linens perfectly clean for you for once. Like, really, like, like we're just, we're. Like a soul in a human body, having a human experience. So let's give ourselves the opportunity to go back to that, right? Like go back. Like, I think that really, there is a really important part in, in kind of the dirty side of this type of work, like the shadow side. We really do have to understand that the importance of stepping
[00:48:46] Pascal: Yeah,
[00:48:48] Rebecca Nicholson: of course, comfort is important, Different levels for every person and what they're looking for. And maybe they start with the really high end. And then they kind of finally start to break through and then they're ready to kind of go maybe mid middle of the road, maybe like a 7, 000 retreat. And then they're like, well, maybe I'll stay here.
No, you never know. Maybe, going to Peru and like having the, sleeping on a floor, their floor would be actually. Exactly what they needed.
[00:49:15] Pascal: Yeah,
[00:49:16] Rebecca Nicholson: Healing work never ends. So it was like when I first started teaching yoga, I worked at a studio that do any Sanskrit, didn't do any of the traditional yogic values that I was trained with. And, um, and I remember the owner came into one of my first classes that I taught and I, and we owned at the end of class and she said, that was a really great class, Rebecca. Um, but one thing we don't own
[00:49:42] Pascal: mm hmm.
[00:49:42] Rebecca Nicholson: What? She's like, and, it was her business model. And what she did was actually quite clever because she was bringing people into practicing yoga that had never practiced yoga before, but there were too intimidated to go to traditional yoga studios
Roaming with the traditional values. She got people to do yoga with cool music, um, with, All of the same things, but just with a different type of language around it. And so
Yoga is a good thing, right?
[00:50:11] Pascal: Yeah
[00:50:12] Rebecca Nicholson: this way or this way, it's still the good, it's still good work. They're still
Moving their bodies.
They're still in community and they always feel better afterwards.
know, I don't, I would hate to say that one way is better than the other way. I don't think that there's one way better than the other way. I think that if is. If the container is set up properly, if the facilitators are taking proper care with, ethical practices, integrity, lots of wisdom and experience, then I think that, people are going to get what they need out of it.
[00:50:43] Pascal: I tend to agree with that. Absolutely. I think you're right that there needs to be a certain level of ethics and care. That's part of it to not create harm that supersedes the benefits that people get. And also there's different access points, you're right, there's different ways to, uh, different roads to roam, right?
I was just thinking, like, I live in Bali now, and, uh, one of the things that the communities do here is they have a temple space and have this big open space. It's just a bit, a floor of a roof, basically. And every week the women gather there. to, uh, do their own form of yoga, which is basically really like aggressive techno music, like the most aggressive beat you can think of, and they just move together, and they just move, they just stretch, and they just do all these things.
And it kind of looks like yoga, I'm guessing they get the same feel out of it, the body opens up and they tense up, they release the tension, and they get together and move together. And, uh, yeah, it's amazing to see, because they're having such a blast, and it's not a fancy schmancy, yoga mats, and they don't have the money for that anyway, but they move their body, and it's healing.
Might not see it as healing, but it's healing. Um, so I, I love that, and, uh, one of my favorite quotes, uh, and I have it in my email signature, is, work is love made visible, which I believe is a roomy quote. And I'm curious, as we close, What are ways, uh, in your life right now as a professional, as someone in the space, like, what are you working on that, uh, to help you, uh, do that more of?
What's the thing you're paying attention to these days, personally?
[00:52:12] Rebecca Nicholson: know, like the work that I'm focusing on for myself right now, like
[00:52:17] Pascal: Yes. Yeah, like your own sort of personal relationship to business side of things.
[00:52:23] Rebecca Nicholson: Yeah.
Um, well for me, it's always been about connection and treating people well, like I was talking
Story earlier today about somebody that I worked with in the past. The way that they worked was very, um, in a way A type. So it was very, almost like computer, like just get things done.
But without the human element. So for me, any kind of work that I do or people that I'm going to work with, truly, it is all about connecting
Let's connect, let's be humans first, and then we'll get the job done. And that's always worked for me. And I have incredible network of people around the world now.
And I'm, I feel so grateful for everyone I've met, but it's really about, be a good person and then people will always answer your call no matter what,
[00:53:12] Pascal: That's so Canadian of you.
[00:53:16] Rebecca Nicholson: But really it's, and for me it's too about from all of my different, physical practices and, um, kind of my own spiritual practices, it's about breath and it's about grounding myself. And,
When I sense the energy from the other person is being blocked or like, how can I share mine? Right. Like, how can I say, almost say. Kind of energetically, how can I help you how can we move through this together? Right. Right. Whereas I think that there's a lot of people that are in pain and they feel really like they're alone. And so how do we do this together? And like you said, in the psychedelic space, how do we join all of these communities?
How do we continue to grow together? Not one way is the best way. just all trying to figure it out still. So for me it's really about the human care comes first and then we
out.
[00:54:10] Pascal: Yeah, that's that. I follow that as well. It's a beautiful thing. It's simple and it comes brings us back to our roots and who we truly are. It's easy to get lost in this sort of bigness and complexity of it all, but ultimately we're just humans and, there's a lot we can do with each other and, uh, and support one another and ourselves as well.
Like nurturing and rest to me is my biggest stuff these days for the last few years of learning how to run. I was also a bit of a type, like progressing and moving forward type of person and that's. The work has taught me just to slow down a lot and to be able to serve.
[00:54:41] Rebecca Nicholson: well, Pascal. Maybe it
[00:54:43] Pascal: Well, that too. Yeah. Mama Bali is nurturing and, uh, teaching me how to just go with the flow.
Like it's part of the culture here. It's like people on their bikes, they're like super. I've seen more smiles here than anywhere else in the world. Like, genuine smiles from people every day. Um, that's really taught me about the simplicity of just being in a way that's joyful. Um, so, a lot of my work has been around that.
[00:55:09] Rebecca Nicholson: yeah. And to be honest, I think that silence is so important too.
[00:55:14] Pascal: It's, absolutely. I shared in the newsletter that we share every few weeks just earlier, like, this song called Quiet by Ajit, which is all about silence, and I'm like, yes, silence, please, yes. Heh.
[00:55:27] Rebecca Nicholson: And it's like, there's so many people
[00:55:29] Pascal: Uh huh. Uh huh.
[00:55:35] Rebecca Nicholson: to fix themselves and all these gurus and, eight coaches and, all of these different, and they're working all different things. But like, how about you just. Just be by yourself. Right? Why don't you just start there? And this is almost going back to the very start of our conversation, which is kind of nice. Book ended a little bit. It was like, just sit with yourself. Just like, just breathe into your heart. And so many people have such a hard time just sitting in silence and just breathing because they're so afraid of their own thoughts and where they're going to go. But the more you do it. You can call it meditation. You can call it whatever you want. You can call it just breathing, but it's really, it's just a form of solitude and caretaking for your own heart. um, nobody can do that for you. He's,
[00:56:22] Pascal: Adyashanti talks about this, it's like we're kind of addicted to the fire, the campfire, but then actually the real richness is behind the fire, looking away from the fire, the senses and the sounds and the beauty of life, which it is beautiful, but spending time away, looking away from the fire is very enriching and nurturing, and there's a whole lot of depth that can be found there, and I think service, if it comes from that space, can be it.
Yeah. Thank you. more effective, more beautiful and more connecting. So thanks for sharing that.
I think that's something that for us in the service space is important to also do that, not just be externally focused. Um, so thank you, Rebecca, so much for sharing and being there. And also Zeppelin for his special appearance.
That's probably the cutest. I want to pet him one day because he's just so fluffy and cute. He's
amazing. He's mad at you. It's funny. Uh oh,
[00:57:13] Rebecca Nicholson: at me. He's over there on the couch.
[00:57:15] Pascal: just a few snacks and a few pets around the ear. He'll be fine. Okay. Thank you, Rebecca. Be well and thanks for your work.
[00:57:23] Rebecca Nicholson: Thank you so much, Pascal. We'll talk soon. Thank you for your work. Nectar is an amazing company and it's been incredible watching me too.
[00:57:31] Pascal: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Be well.
[00:57:34] Rebecca Nicholson: You too.
