Beyond Profit: Decolonizing Psychedelic Programs

[00:00:00] Pascal: Hi, welcome to One Degree Shifts. I'm Pascal Tremblay. I'm your host and the co founder of Nectara. And today I'm really thrilled and honored that I'm joined with Dr. Pilar Hernandez. Uh, I'm of met Dr. Hernandez

Horizons in Portland, maybe three years ago, time flies. And I was really impressed by her talk and her views and the way she approaches medicine work.

And so I'm really excited that she's on the podcast today to share some of her views with Dr. Pilar is a systematically

[00:00:31] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: Hi, Pascale, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this invitation. My pleasure.

[00:01:00] Pascal: Tell us more about your, uh, you called it social location. I really like that term. Tell us more about about that.

[00:01:06] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: um, I want to share a little bit about, um, where I come from and who I am because that shapes my interests and it also has shaped the access and opportunities that I have had in my life and also in my professional life and also in medicine spaces. Um, I'm an immigrant in the U. S. I, um, at this point, I've lived half of my life in Colombia and more than half in the U.

S., and I am Colombian. I was born and, uh, raised in Colombia, and that's also where I did my undergrad. Um, my, um, this is an important detail. My parents were of a generation in Colombia that had this tiny window of opportunity to get, um, a very well grounded education through scholarships. Um, my, I come from a long history of.

And, um, they, their parents were migrants from other places in Colombia and they were able to access education because of the, um, uh, Programs and the politics in the country at that time. And this was like a tiny window of opportunity. So when I came, uh, into my family, uh, my parents, uh, were,

sure about

say moving from working class to more middle class.

So I benefited from, uh, a very good education and that's what. They gave me, uh, my, my father was a salary person and my mother had a small business. Um, and that's how I came. That's why I came to the U S I came through a scholarship to the university of Massachusetts. I, um, had also the opportunity in Colombia to have, uh, exposure here and there

So,

uh, knowledges and ways of doing things that were not exactly mainstream.

Um, I had here and there, uh, opportunities to, uh, interact and be with people who were very different from me. And, um, I also had a consciousness of. Of the fact that I was a mixed person, um, that I had indigenous background, that I had a black background, African background, and also Southern European background.

And I'm really a mixed of all these things. But of course, later on, as I became more curious about understanding, um, indigenous psychologists, um, I, in this journey, I, uh, was able to see and embrace that

[00:04:15] Pascal: Um,

[00:04:23] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: happens within the context and colonization of the Americas.

So it's really, um,

Yeah.

stress and resilience. And because I have studied so much within Western thinking, traumatic stress and resilience, that actually have opened doors much later in my life to really inquire about like, how do other people heal and how do other people survive and how they keep up and thrive in spite of all the things that happen to them and to us, right?

Um, so in some ways, that is connected. I want to, uh, also say that, um, I have gone back into a journey of, uh, embracing and connecting with Indigenous roots, but not mine, because that disappeared. Because, like I said, I am part of that mass of people who, uh, were, um, you know, erased and became something else.

through this violence that has occurred over time, right? So the consciousness, the histories, the memories were really lost. I like to think that they were lost at a cognitive level, at a psychological level, but not at a cellular level. That that wisdom exists there in some way because You know, that's what has brought me back to understand, learn, and connect with other indigenous peoples.

Um, and also understand, uh, my privilege and accountability in those systems. Um, and also understand, um, all the experiences of marginalization and opportunity and also lack of opportunity here in the U. S. As a Latinx person, as a woman of color, but I am cis, I'm heterosexual, and I do enjoy some privileges around that that are very real.

Uh, I'm still an able bodied person, and that is also something that gives me access and opportunity to a lot of things that other people can't do. Involving, for example, medicine retreats in really, you know, places that are hard to get to.

[00:06:55] Pascal: hmm. hmm. Yes. Thank you for sharing all that and that that richness and that that lived history brings a different perspective that, can only help support your work and the people that you're supporting through a diverse lens and also, uh, an understanding of what you're doing. Um, suffering and erasing and colonialism and all those type of things, uh, really feel like on a very lived level. And you're also right about access and privilege. Uh, I also have the privilege of access, and I think that's a one that we often take for granted. But a lot of people don't have access, and this space in general is pretty gated. And, uh, you know, in terms of access, how did you end up working in this space and how did you, what did you learn from starting to work in this space from that cultural lens and from that lived history and from that mixed lineage? did you step into the space and what have you seen in the space from that lens? Because I'm really curious to hear more about your experiences and what you've seen from your, your own personal views.

[00:08:08] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: What just briefly, what opened this, how I came to work with plant medicines and what changed my life was the grandmother plant, yagé or ayahuasca, in Colombia we call it yagé. And, uh, I knew about yagé for a long time. I didn't feel called to do it. And there was a point in my life when, um, I, this was about.

17 years ago, where, uh, I had enough desperation in my life and enough lack of meaning,

um, that I, uh, felt it was time for me to try this and I did and it changed my life completely and I am forever grateful, uh, to this plant teacher, to this medicine and to all the communities that human and non human that, uh, commune with the Yahé and that are all giving us and have given us and given me the possibility to heal and to learn and to be here.

So I'm in service to the earth and I'm in service to the grandmother. Um, I have, uh, my, uh, teacher for almost as long as I've been drinking, who is from the Kamensa community. Uh, his name is Santos Jamioy Muchavizoy. We have actually written together, and sometimes we do talks together. Um, And he's been guiding me for, you know, a very long time.

So that's how this started in Colombia. But, um, when, um, and I realized over time that, um, the, there's, there are many communities in the U. S. communities that are wonderful communities where people were exploring these and, uh, working with medicines of different kinds and, and whatnot. And, um, that was a very rich and beautiful landscape.

When, um, I kept my, my work in Columbia, this kind of work based in Columbia and my teacher in Columbia. And when, um, Um, Measure 109, um, when we voted to approve Measure 109 here in Oregon, which is where I live now, um, that opened the door for, um, open conversation and an open pathway to, um, share, um, a lot of things I knew that I couldn't share before because it was, um, not allowed.

Okay.

[00:11:18] Pascal: in this space.

And yet these topics are often not talked about. I don't know. Perhaps you have some opinions on this, why it's not being talked about, maybe because we're kind of blind to it, maybe in some ways, but I just want to honor that you brought that up in the beginning as your social context, because it does inform a lot of your work and those things, uh, deeply influence everything we're doing in the space that, um, I'd love to hear from your perspective, how these, uh, this this history and lived experience that you've had in these different perspectives that you've been interfacing within your work as well in terms of patriarchy and colonialism and racism and sexism and those type of things they are present in the space and things like measure one on nine.

For example, you were. Maybe you can share a bit more even involvement with that. That's how I actually met you in the beginning. Three years ago was that you were involved in this and at horizons. There was a big speakers and there was a lot of excitement about this. There was a lot of big, uh, you know, uh, fireworks about this new measure and how amazing it was going to be.

I can share a little bit more about like your experience with that and also from from your lens as well, like what you've seen in the development of this and, uh, you know, you. Yeah, different opportunities or maybe different challenges that you've faced in that work.

[00:12:44] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: Sure. Well, In my lifetime, In my profession as a counseling psychologist and family therapist, I've done also a lot of work over the years, um, around, uh, how context shapes mental health and family's lives and people's choices and whatnot. Context shapes in this, uh, the, you know, identities are not just something we like.

It's not about that. It's about how those identities have structural implications. Right. And that's why they shape family life and race and class and gender and sexual orientation are key to that. Right. And one of the problems in these training spaces is that, um, these, um, These issues of context are, um, not discussed in this way, but more as the multicultural add on, add on that people talk about.

So the same thing that happens in mainstream psychology and mainstream counseling is like, this is the add on, we need to talk about this diversity stuff, here it is. And because of that, um, these, the, the, The importance of the nuances and how important our contextual experience is to heal, it's not taken into account.

One of the challenges that, um, I think relates to these that I wanted to mention, and hopefully start responding to, uh, your inquiry in that way, is that Um, I like to anchor the work I do, um, both professionally and also in the medicine space in thinking about border thinking. Border thinking is, uh, let's say, um, a concept, um, and, and, and borderlands, the concept of borderlands that, uh, Gloria Anzaldua Chicana author, uh, brought to the fore, uh, decades ago, where, um, She was talking about the places in between the places in which, um, there are gaps, fissures, where identities are constructed, where there is like a board, borders of knowledge happen, right?

And in her case, this was very literate, uh, literal because she was in the lived in the border between Texas and Mexico. Right? And, um, In those spaces have more, uh, are more porous, uh, cultural representations are not as fixed as when you move into more, uh, let's say dominant expenses, spaces of sorts, right?

Silence. Silence.

and borderlands to think about what are, um, psychologically, what are spaces where we can bring knowledges that are not dominant knowledges that can help us also nurture how we think, right? And, uh, I thought, uh, that measure 109 was going to be or had the potential to allow people like me

Okay.

knowledge, right? Um, I mean, of course, trying to make these blends work is a, has a lot of contradictions and dilemmas, but it also has a lot of beauty and possibility. And that's what a borderland space is. It's a place where you live with contradiction and is a space that is much more fluid, right?

Um,

Okay.

my colleague, um, Elizabeth Hawkey and I, uh, developed a 20 hour, uh, training program on psilocybin assisted therapy. And we could do that through the institution I work for, uh, and continuing education. And we had complete freedom to do it. There was actually four of us who did it.

and, um, to other people.

Mm

Um, and we developed this together and we had just freedom to do it because it was new because the rules were not all in place because the competition that was going to happen was not fully out there. And, um, It had a lot of promise.

hmm.

Um,

[00:17:44] Pascal: a little curious to explore, what were the border elements of this program? What are some ways that you brought that concept in

[00:17:51] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: well, there was, um, two people, um, two of us who were, um, Latinx people with, um, uh, experience and knowledge of different Indigenous medicines. And there were two people who were already working with ketamine. And, uh, two of us had been studying and working with the issues of decolonization.

So it brought this indigenous element, um, and honoring our ancestors, and the closing also had a ceremonial space, and the discussions had these different flavors. So that, to me, was an example in that context, at that moment, of a borderland space.

[00:18:39] Pascal: We don't all have the answers. So diversity brings richness, just like in nature.

[00:18:46] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: Um, if you are out and about, you'll see that there's a lot of things, not just one.

[00:18:52] Pascal: Exactly.

[00:18:54] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: do that, but if you're just there, it's like there is All sorts of things.

[00:18:59] Pascal: of the balcony here and just see the results of what diversity brings, which is just phenomenal. Pure, you know, blossoming and flourishing. Um, and yeah, with a lot of different identities and different types of things. So it, so you, you've started working within the development of 109, you were invited to contribute and then what happened after that,

[00:19:19] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: So I, um, I participated in a subcommittee and do some committees, the training subcommittee and the equity subcommittee. And this was to help with the rolling out of the implementation of the norm. There were, uh, many challenges, um, in trying to be helpful and put this together. I think that everybody who was there donated a lot of time and were really willing to help out and, you know, work things out.

But there were a lot of differences. What I realized through that was that, some decisions were already made and that, um, what was really up for discussion was not what I thought was up for discussion. And maybe a lot of these processes go like that, and that there were also, you know, groups with different interests, um, that, um, had weight in making decisions, right?

So, um, an example of a problem that happened later had to do with data collection. Um, you know, a local university was, has been given, um, Access to, uh, data from service centers. Um, this was not part of what people voted for. Um, so people have to opt out from giving their data away instead of opting in, opting in, which is a problem.

And all this data goes to, it's monopolized, it goes to a university, it's not public. And there you go, who knows, they do whatever they want with that. So I was, I opposed that. That's kind of an example of the kind of challenges that here we are, those of us who come here trying to think about like, okay, can we make this blends?

Can we bring a spiritual perspective to this? Can we bring an indigenous spiritual perspective? And then we have the challenges of working with like, okay, how \ can we make it work with It's a very clinical way of thinking and a very clinical system that also is thinking about safety in a certain way.

So there are all those challenges. And then there's the other political challenges, very power driven about, Oh, we want your data. And these days data is money, right? So, and a monopoly of your data. So those are other challenges that came up that, um, were very difficult.

[00:22:01] Pascal: Mm hmm. Do you feel like I'm sorry to hear all that? And do you feel like you? You were kind of holding this new paradigm view of things and the people you're working. Some of them were also holding that and these sort of systemic structures that we talked about earlier were too strong, and it just wasn't enough willingness and flexibility to welcome this new paradigm where you're thinking and how did it make you feel?

I'm assuming you felt deflated and disappointed.

[00:22:29] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: It was really hard. And what happened, let me just give you a little bit of the story so you can see, so, um, we did that training and then, um, that ended. And then my, my colleague, Liz, uh, Elizabeth Hokie and I developed a training with my institution and we planned it and it was going to be offered and, um, at the same time that one of the main programs that had all the support You know, here in Oregon was going to, uh, come out and, uh, the institution decided to close it down.

[00:23:10] Pascal: Um, Uh,

[00:23:12] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: So when, why? Because

[00:23:14] Pascal: Uh,

[00:23:16] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: for it, it was reasonable because they, um, they didn't want to have any conflicts with the federal government because psilocybin is illegal. But at that time we had institutional support when we decided to still do this without institutional support and just create an LLC.

There were four of us and we created Earth Medicine Center. And once we were in that space to answer your question, does it make you feel deflated? That's when I really felt how hard it was. That's when I, I mean, I knew it was hard, but it's different when you have institutional support and the kind of institutional support that we had was really good.

We worked so much, we volunteered our work to make this happen so much. And that's when it became really clear that this space is so uneven.

So uneven that I don't know how people can make it in this. And some programs like Solid Wings in Eugene, Oregon have made it, and I think they are fabulous. They have a strong community, and they have a great team. quality program and it has taken them a lot of work to get where they are. Earth Medicine Center did not survive partly because the challenges were too big.

On the one hand, um, we, you know, we were estranged with just, you know, four people trying to put everything together. But then the other piece is that, or was that, um, Liz and I are both

[00:24:53] Pascal: Okay.

[00:25:17] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: 7 and 10, 000 for these programs. Right? And you have to charge because people's. Training expertise on time, uh, matters, right? And we close it down this earth medicine center. We were looking ahead at how hard it was going to be to establish a service center, how expensive it was going to be to establish a service center, how expensive the services were going to be, and how, uh, you probably are not going to be able to charge as much as you want to, and how, um, it's going to be hard for people who are, uh, licensed as mental health professionals to navigate this space.

It is possible if you have two separate practices and some people are doing it and are doing it well. Um, but at the time we thought this is filled with ethical issues and we have to go slow at this. And because of all these issues that came up, we were thinking, like, how do we embed a spiritual practice into this?

Are there conditions, right? Are there material human conditions to bring psilocybin, a conscious being, and the family of psilocybin? Which is, you know, all the forest beings and all the other beings that support psilocybin. How can we bring an integrity? How can we bring them to this space? Where we have all these concerns about lack of equity, financial issues, and, you know, all these ethical dilemmas.

[00:27:03] Pascal: Yeah, like too much people being trained, the high cost of care, the lack of integration and preparation support is blatant. That's another add on we can talk about, the care support. The question I'm left with, you know, and I've seen it way beyond Oregon and, and, you know, in plant medicine, retreat centers, ketamine centers, clinics, facilitators, like, what are we doing?

What are we up to in the space? Like what is our ultimate goal here? And there is a tension right now in between the capitalistic colonialist way and the more Ethically focused, uh, ancestral wisdom, traditional and spiritual even ways that are conflicting because this space has all the power and they have the money and the say and the positions of leadership and structures that are extractive, and they'd get to decide the game plan is what I'm hearing from your experience, and that that's prevalent in, you know, in individual facilitators or ourselves as, you know, people that are in the business or people that, you know, host retreat centers. All these systems have been embedded inside of us, and we're trying to do our best to change and step into this new paradigm, but the levels of power are still very present and they're dictating a lot of what's going on in the space. And that's very challenging. It's hard and it takes a toll on people like yourself that are trying to do something, different and more ethical and more intentional as well.

So I want to salute you for your time and, and, um, the energy you put into to do something different and also doing something different with your work every day. So, yeah, thank you for that. recognizing how challenging that that must have been for you.

[00:28:49] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: Thank you for Scott. Yeah, it was. It's been a learning experience, I hear, um, hear what you're saying in some of the biggest challenges in these spaces, I think, um, is that have to do one with, um, the fact that, um, once these, at least here in Oregon, once this was this measure 109 was sold as, oh, this is a therapeutic thing, this is going to help with depression and anxiety and what not.

That's not what the measure said, but that's how it was sold. There was. Obviously an expectation that, um, this is for everybody and that we're going to help everybody. And coming from where I'm coming from, right, trying to work in this borderland space, um, you have to see that Uh, some people want a pill and get better.

They're not interested in ceremony. They're not interested in the consciousness of psilocybin. They're not interested in reciprocity. They're not interested in preserving, you know, the wetlands, the forest, etc. Because they are giving all, giving this to us. Right. That's not where they are at. They are coming to see you as if you are a mental health person who is going to help them with treatment and they're going to feel better and they're paying for a service and they want a good service.

So there needs to be. I think a gamut of services for different people. Some people need something very clinical, extremely clinical that really fits into go to an office, put your shades, you know, take these, put your shades, lay down, and I'm here with you and here's your music. Uh, that's Some of your public, and then there is a continuum of a lot of people who are going to benefit from other things.

And I think there needs to be diversity and equity in all these different kinds of services.

[00:30:58] Pascal: Yes, absolutely. And also the question that, um, love to ask you is that out of this system, like who's not in the room? not? Being included in this system because from what I'm hearing from you and others that it's very expensive People from overseas fly in and get treatment go to a hotel leave two days later uh, and yeah It's expensive and the service centers are expensive to maintain the regulations are expensive that everything is sort of like based on

[00:31:27] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: If you want to walk, yeah, if you want to work above ground, it is very expensive. And it is very expensive because there is an infrastructure that needs to be fed. Which is, you know, the Oregon Silo Serbian services and the infrastructure created by the state and because there is the risk, all the risk involved with the taxation here that there is no protection right for taxes.

So the service and running a service center, I understand is very expensive and, um, getting insurance is also very difficult. So, um, yes, there is. It's not accessible and this is why the work that is done underground continues to exist. And there's a lot of very experienced and good people underground who know what they are doing. And it is less expensive, of course. But that, the cost of underground work has also gone up of this. Also because, you know, people show up here with money and they can pay a lot.

[00:32:38] Pascal: And some people, some people charge more.

[00:32:42] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: Right,

so this has created an effect that I don't find very desirable because it has close accessibility. But at the same time, I just don't know. I really question if all the people. I mean, that I question that, um, the services that are the way they are proposed are for everyone because some people do need.

[00:33:09] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: A psychotherapist with them, not at the moment, but you know, with it, they need to have a therapist and some people may need medical help. That might be possible. Some people need a lot more than the people who in the past used to just join gatherings underground and work together as a community. I think it's a different kind of community and a different kind of people.

[00:33:38] Pascal: right, And so you feel, um, like the biocentric model, the approach is being left out that the spiritual and more based, uh, and social wisdom approaches are being left out. Of the system or the access or it's being repressed even which is go as far as saying that because the structure doesn't quite accommodate or welcome the ways of working that, uh, are more prevalent in those approaches for for folks.

[00:34:09] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: So, you know, there's less options for people basically.

Yeah. And I mean, and this is why the borderland practices will continue to flourish underground, because there is people that there will always be people who are connected to the land and who have enough freedom and protection to do other things. And I applaud that. That happens everywhere and that should continue to happen.

[00:34:37] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: Um, they, they, of course, that brings a lot of questions about like, you know, safety, protection, regulation. Yeah, all these things have always been there as a problem. What we decided to do or what I decided to do Um, after, you know, seeing that these vessels of the LLC of the school, of these training programs, uh, were not the right containers, the right vessels for the program, I wanted to have , uh, was that I created a church.

So I studied, um, a little bit what the, um. Some of the churches of the South have done to, uh, be free from a state interference. And, um, I, um, I learned then that that is possible. And, um, I created a church that is called, uh, weaving Bridges Natural Fellowship, and it's a non-denominational faith-based organization done where we acknowledge that we are nature.

And we believe that nature is a spirit and that through a deeper and more conscious connection with nature, we can open up our own spirituality and learn and commune with the spirit of nature and receive her guidance. So, um, in that container. Where we're thinking about our relationship, not only with humans, but the other than human world, is where I want to bring psilocybin, is where I want to commune with this beautiful being that I is, you know, so amazing as a teacher.

So to me, creating that container was a much better container for doing the work I would like to do. That is incoherence with the way I want to integrate good knowledge from the West, from clinical practice in the West, and also Indigenous knowledges that to me are essential and I want to pass down and survive.

[00:36:53] Pascal: Sounds beautiful and I'd love to hear more. And it's not about the right way or the wrong way. It's more about having spiritual ethics lead the way rather than colonialism and extractive systems that create harm. And so I think, you know, we don't want to say that one way or another is better, but having ethics at the core of this is what the medicines are. Are teaching us or trying to teach us or trying to inspire us to step into and it's not that we're going to be perfect, but that we have this intention of letting ethics lead the way, which I think can help us reach our goals, which again, brings up the question of why are we doing all this help heal and planet and and and our communities, right?

Or bring them back to wholeness. So, um, yeah, tell us more about the fellowship, which I love the name, by the way, just rings really nicely. Mm

[00:37:44] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: I think if you ask any training program why they're doing this, everybody say that they want to help others and heal. I think that we need to go farther and explain how we are accountable to the non human world, the other than human world, and what is our relationship with capitalist systems.

Because we are in, we are in it anyway,

and I think that that's where there needs to be transparency, right? There are really good training programs that are a business. And the problem I have with that is that all these, a lot of these businesses hide the fact that their ethics, Are, uh, involve, um, profit, involve hierarchies of a certain kind, are exclusionary, are racist, etc.,

etc., even though they say they are doing it for the wellness of everybody. So, there is a lot of that out there and I have a problem with that. So, I don't think that,

[00:38:50] Pascal: in this space. Let's just say

There's a lot of

[00:38:52] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: don't,

So I don't think we're all the same. I think there needs to be transparency so that people can choose better. Right. And people need to see and ask like, you know, really how do you, you know, do, do this.

Right. So, um, here with this church, this is a really an experiment. It's an experiment in reciprocity. And the thing with this Pascal is that it's not. You know, it's, it's, it's hard to do, it's a challenge, so I don't think it's, it's necessarily a model for a lot of people. But, um, what I wanted to do was to have a container besides, I mean, the church has an aspect, it's a church and it has its own, let's say, activities and other things.

But we decided to host the psilocybin training program in this church. So that we could have conditions that would allow us to work in it with nature and with more reciprocity with each other. So specifically for this psilocybin training program, what, um, Uh, my partner, Dax Johnson, and my colleague, Elizabeth Hokie, and I decided to do was create a community.

And we invited, um, colleagues and people we knew to see if they wanted us to join in a program that would be built by us, where we would exchange knowledge with each other. So there was no money involved. We did get a grant. It was a small grant and we needed that grant to make this work. So there's the money part.

Um, because we needed to get the program approved by the OHA and we also needed the program to get approved by the Oregon Higher Education Authority. And that takes a lot of time and money and Basically, Lisa and I were the ones who ended up doing that with the help of my partner and a friend. Um, so, um, it just has required a lot of service, a lot of volunteering to create the conditions where we could exchange with each other.

And train each other. So we chose people. We invited people who had experience working with the medicines and, um, some level of mutual understanding about ethics and, um, we built a program together and obviously following the regulations we have to follow. But basically we had a program that where ceremonies were embedded in it.

[00:41:26] Pascal: I'm not talking only about psilocybin ceremonies, but just ceremonies, a part of the training and building community together so that we could bring in the spiritual world as we want to know it, as we want to relate to it, and also the other than human world into what we were studying, because it is about psilocybin.

Mm

[00:41:52] Pascal: how could you not have at the forefront, the other than human world, right?

not edgy at all. It's something that's been practiced for thousands of years. It's not edgy at all. And so it's it's very much needed in the world that we reconnect with that. Um, you know, I have a friend, a really good friend who's been doing coaching for a number of years and recently he told me I'm going to put the word God on my website.

[00:42:15] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: I'm tired of hiding the fact that I am talking about God and working with God. It's okay to talk about this stuff.

[00:42:21] Pascal: Yeah, I agree.

So the model you have with this program, it's actually based on bartering. To get training. It's not something that you pay a fee and you're you're part of the program. You're actually just exchanging knowledge and also value together, which I find very interesting.

[00:42:38] Pascal: So I i'd love to hear more about like the curriculum or like is there a curriculum or just get together and share?

[00:42:46] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: Is both. Um, I, um. One of the main sources of inspiration for what we're doing is the work of Robin Wall Kimmerer, the author of Braiding Sweetgrass. , she talks a lot about reciprocity and, uh, um, a gift giving economy. And this was an experiment in gift giving instead of money giving. Like I said, we did get a small donation.

Because we had to pay fees and things and whatnot. What we came to do together and, and, you know, obviously some people offer more than other people. It's never necessarily equal, but we came to, um, work together on, we basically said, okay, this is, this is what we're going to do. Do you want to make that commitment?

Do you want to make a commitment for a full year to put all this time? So everybody donated a ton of time to train each other. So you, you know, it was a big ask, a big commitment. So the people who were able to do it said yes. Um, and then, um, We worked on getting to know each other and looking at, um, the topics that had to be covered and collectively deciding who wanted to do what.

Drawing on the experiences and, you know, expertise that people, uh, had. So, um, and then, you know, at times supporting and filling in when somebody You know, couldn't do it, or we had a situation where somebody, um, couldn't continue with the program, so we had to fill in, you know, that whole content at some point, right?

Um, our friends from SolarWinds, um, helped us with that, that problem once because somebody, um, couldn't do it, and we needed an instructor for that topic, so, um, they were very supportive and, you know, helped us with that. Um, but so we met, we, we met online sometimes, um, at a specific time, you know, uh, during the week.

[00:44:57] Pascal: And then we did a lot of weekends and we did a lot of weekends so that we could have blocks of time so we could interact with each other, connect, share, and so that these would feel more like that bartering with each other instead of a class.

Or transactional, yeah.

[00:45:16] Pascal: But the mindset is different, no?

yeah, it is very different. I bet it creates the sense of, of shared connection and shared vision and values. And, um, feels very enriching at least hearing you say that. Speak about it, that this approach of almost coming back to what makes us humans basically, and in a way that you're interacting with each other and the way you, the structure is, which I love that you mentioned the, the money piece, because that's often an unseen unspoken thing.

[00:45:49] Pascal: Like, where's the money coming from? Where, like, what are you doing with it? And we've done our very best to be fully transparent about that. Like Nectar is a social enterprise and we operate as a nonprofit. The money gets circulated back into our offerings. And that's, that's just part of our. of our legal papers.

So, um, I love the way you're approaching this and am curious as we're kind of nearing time, uh, I'd love to, to pick your brain a little bit on something, which is, first of all, how can people get involved with the program? Is there, is there like an ongoing sign up? Is there a pause? Like what's going on with the program?

[00:46:23] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: Cause I'd love to, to, uh, uh, refer people or link people to it so they can explore if it's a good fit for them.

Well, I, a question it's hard to answer right now. We are finishing up this year, actually this month, and we will have a meeting early next year to decide who wants to do the next iteration and if there is enough appetite for that. So I'm not sure.

[00:46:52] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: Okay, well, to be determined then.

Yes.

[00:46:54] Pascal: So

you share to folks out there that are looking to take a program? There's like and dozens of programs out there that promises different things at different timelines with different curriculums, and there's so many different out there, and there's no centralized or even community driven sort of certification or review or any, any sort of ethical, uh, frameworks around, like, what's a good program, uh, you know, which ones are effective, and it's going to be different for everyone. can someone navigate the field of training programs? Like, how do you navigate that as a facilitator? It's a

[00:47:41] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: Oh, I know it is a big question.

Maybe there's no answer. That's okay.

Yeah, well, I think that it depends on where you're starting. What is your starting point? If you are somebody who has experience with, uh, non ordinary states of consciousness, if you already have experience with many medicines, if you know people in different communities, if you have traveled to other countries and have been in ceremony in other countries, um, I think that that's a different journey than the journey of a person who is curious and has no experience and, you know, has tried psilocybin once or twice here in Oregon.

[00:48:25] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: Um, and that is one of the issues in doing this work that, um, I do think experience is really important. Um, even bad experiences 'cause we learned from that. I've had many experiences that have been really difficult and not, and some that have been some that have been really bad. Um, I learned from that.

I'm not recommending that people go and do that, but I just think that, you know, it's a part of the journey and the people who get more experience in doing this are the people who are more experienced. And it's good to do it with people who you can trust and who are going to guide you and help you. Um.

I think that, um, the people who come with experience are people who could benefit from taking it, you know, let's say a training program because I think there is traditional Western knowledge and science that may, they may not know that we should, we all should know that,

um, it is also really important to know because when we work in, um, you know, let's say, um, Mainstream spaces with people who don't know much about this, but might not be might be interested and want to do it.

You have to work with them within their framework. So, you know, you have to know the science. You need to be able to talk in those terms with people. You need to speak different languages. Right? And the language of science is important, and it's important that you know, you know, what matters, basically, and how different things, different, you know, plants and products, you know, have different effects and what could happen and, um, what people might need.

Um, and what creates safety in space and whatnot. All this is knowledge that people need to have, right? It's important to know about the research done with psilocybin in the UK and in the US because, uh, it's pretty good research. And that's what validates knowledge in the West. So we should know that and we should know it well, right.

And I support that it's done. Um, so I think there's, there's aspects there that, you know, we all benefit from that for the people who don't have experience are curious and have done this a couple of times. I think that it's a little more difficult because, uh, where do you get the experience? How do you do that?

And, you know, that's the path that they have to find out. Um, so they could find a training program. The problem is that then if you don't know what you're missing, you don't know what you're missing. So you're going to rely on the classroom knowledge and your traditional ways of knowing and learning to work with the medicine and ways.

That are more suitable for other ways of working, and that's where it's a little, that's going to be difficult. There's going to be some challenges there. Um, I think that people, perhaps in Colorado, uh, where there is, I think the laws are turning out to be a little better. Uh, there will be better experiences with more, better training with, if it's more experiential.

If it's not all online, um, if you have the, uh, I would say if, if you have the capacity, the capacity to go there, the ability to go there, the access, the opportunity to go there and to, uh, be in a training program where there is some sense of sense of community, where there is some trust, where you can have some safety or is safe enough to, um, be vulnerable.

[00:52:26] Pascal: Because in working with these medicines, Um, we grow and we change and we need support where we get very challenged in working with these medicines. It could be a big challenge, right? So you have to have a community that can hold on that. And I don't think online programs do that. Online programs tells you facts and gives you information. That's good. You need to have information. You have to know these things. But in order to learn the craft, you need guides, experienced people, and community.

Mm hmm. Absolutely. We're all walking the path together and we all need support. I think that's the core concept of how I see this work is we're doing it together. And, uh, We need each other, actually.

[00:53:18] Pascal: And we need too, and we need spirituality and ethics to help us, as well, and to show us the way.

And I'm curious, as we close, what's your greatest hope for this space?

[00:53:31] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: I am hoping that, um, we come back to two things. One, that we come back to our hearts to remember why we're doing this. It's beyond us individually. But come back to our hearts through that and that we learn with and from nature that this is less anthropocentric, that is less about humans and that we actually ask the mushrooms and ask the plant medicines and everybody in nature what is needed and how to do this.

That we slow down to reconnect, to, um, live in harmony with nature and to learn with and from nature.

It's possible it can be done.

[00:54:26] Pascal: Yes, and people are doing it. Pascale. I appreciate so much the way you are weaving and weaving with nature.

And, uh, yeah, these are beautiful words of wisdom and you're going to be sharing more words of wisdom in our mentorship program Interwoven, uh, in March and April, I believe you're going to be talking about intersectionality, I believe, and other juicy topics like that.

[00:54:51] Pascal: So I, I. Really welcome and invited this border thinking that you're going to bring into the program. So I'm really excited about that. And yeah, thank you so much for your work. really resonates and that's it. Thank you. Yeah, for doing that and for standing for these values, which I think are the right way of the future and um, I say the right way for me and they're going to blend into the other ways But also just energy you put in I think influences, uh everything around it So thank you for that and uh, I look forward to seeing you again.

We're

With me and everybody who is in your network, uh, these community of hope and reconnection with each other and with nature because this is what we need to do that. That's it.

together. Yeah,

[00:55:47] Pascal: it together

[00:55:48] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: exactly. Doing it together. Thank you so much.

[00:55:51] Pascal: much. Yeah. Thank you. Be well and have a good

[00:55:54] Pilar Hernandez Wolfe: Okay, you too. Bye bye.

‍